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Fire Sword of DK (and other mid-late game weapons vs currently buffed proc weapons)

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BOSS Discord edited

At its current 10% proc rate, the +7 Blazing Fire Sword of Deathknight performs below the much more accessible +9 Smoldering Paagrio’s Hatred despite being dramatically rarer. Increasing the DK Sword proc rate to 12% would place the weapons nearly even, while a 14% proc rate would allow the DK Sword to clearly outperform Paagrio’s Hatred and better reflect its rarity and boss-drop status.

I’m also personally biased toward fire elf, and DK Sword already feels like the closest thing we have to a true fire-elf-specific weapon. Another interesting option would be increasing the weapon’s base damage to 20/15 while setting the proc rate to 13%, which synergizes extremely well with Soul of Flame and creates a much stronger fire elf identity rather than relying entirely on proc scaling. I dont believe any of these recommended changes would seriously alter the game.

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BOSS Discord

Funny enough we got a KV1HS tonight. It’s on par with a +9 paag at +7.

😟 I really do think paag is OP at this point. Other than a FID dagger there is nothing better— and a 9 paag is a direct comparison.

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Dave Mack Discord

Ya, PH out does Eva scorn too. Not exactly comparing apples to apples since Eva scorn is AOE, but it's a very rare drop compared to making a PH.

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KrazySam Discord

* Suggested Balance Adjustment*

  • Paagrio Proc Rate reduced from 14% → 11%
  • Fire DK Sword Proc Rate increased from 10% → 13%

These adjustments are intended to better position the Fire DK Sword as a stronger long-term DPS option compared to an easily crafted and heavily over-enchanted Paagrio weapon.

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KrazySam Discord

Has a 15% proc rate. However the proc damage is lower. I can look into upping/adjusting damage however. Kv1hs never had a proc to begin with and is more easily obtained than a Fire DK sword due to being able to farm on 91f+

Do you truly believe kv1hs should be stronger than DK sword at this time? If so then everyone will be living on those floors farming them.

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BOSS Discord

The pledge has been farming for over a month for KV sword— I’d disagree heavily that DK sword is easier to obtain

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BOSS Discord

Don’t want to speak for Mephi but from our private conversations I think he would agree that KV1HS should be above DK sword.

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KrazySam Discord

I would agree if it could only be obtained from the 80f boss. It drops from a regular monster that can be farmed.

KV 1HS can be farmed repeatedly on 91F+

  • Fire DK Sword is rarer/harder to obtain
  • Therefore KV 1HS should not outperform DK Sword

This is my opinion. We could put it to a poll and see what others say but as it stands kv1hs is easier to obtain. So making it stronger wouldn’t make sense.

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BOSS Discord

91f is a WAYYY bigger point of entry to farm than MLC 5-7 with a boss that might take 2 people.

For context I’m holding all three weps right now. Not incentivized for one to be higher than the other but I’m surprised by the idea of DK not being below KV.

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KrazySam Discord

KV was always below DK on live. It was only 19/19 with some dmg and no proc. I know in theory it sounds like it should be stronger than DK and we’ve made changes to things. But I can’t justify it being stronger than DK at this time because it’s actually farmable.

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BOSS Discord

This vs checking DK and calling a buddy while fighting it.

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AtariAfterDark site: console Discord

It's like this with most high end easily accessible weapons that go +10 in all classes with the way elemental scrolls work. I'm just wondering why nerf the paag? Why not just beef up the harder to obtain weapons?

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padwell Discord

Maphrs getting a nerf too? Might as well hit the other easily obtainable, comparable weapon

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BOSS Discord

This is what I was expecting but 🤷

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BOSS Discord

Here is test data on a 65 fire elf -dmgtesttarget 1000 on Blue at Giran X. Without any buffs the DK sword does 7.1% more dmg than KV. With buffs the KV does about 2% more dmg than the DK.

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BOSS Discord

In PVP testing KV seems significantly stronger with and without fire resist/elefalldown for DK sword.

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Moofinity Discord

I agree with this... because although the changes probably help Standard, you just gutted melee for us Knights in Classic.

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BOSS Discord edited

KV also 'feels' stronger in pve hunting

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padwell Discord

What are the damage test results for paag after the nerf versus the fire sword?

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BOSS Discord

Paag proc damage isn’t huge though— so I wouldn’t expect a huge nerf

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padwell Discord

I guess I'll throw them in here later when I can get on to test it

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padwell Discord

Can we get a community poll on this issue? Nerfing one item rather than just simply bumping up an underpowered one to benefit a single player, possibly a couple (because I'm not sure of how many fire swords have actually dropped) seems unreasonable. Like, it's yalls server, do what you want, and I may be off with the rest of the players, but I know I can't be the only one thinking this way. I would post post nerf damage tests for this thread, but they'll be irrelevant because I'm not using a similarly geared/leveled fire elf to test it. Also don't have my pre-nerf damage tests recorded anywhere.

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Baranka Discord

I agree.Should bring the dk sword up not everything else down.

A boss dropping a +9 weapon with our current ele weapon enchant system is pretty awesome to be honest. I agree the dk sword needed a buff but to bring the paag down a peg seems extreme.

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Baranka Discord edited

Also why only the paag? The ret does more dmg on average.

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Beers Discord

Revert the nerf to paag and make DKS better. I do not really understand nerfing something people worked hard to get because another item was underperforming. It takes time and money to make a +9. The ele enchants on the +9 are the only reason it gets the bump. They are what changed the game not the items itself. Please dont take that as saying nerf ele enchants.

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Baranka Discord

Also the proc % goes up by enchant lvl so a 9 paag proc chance would be higher just based on enchantment value

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BOSS Discord

I am 100% on board with not nerfing paag and just buffing DK. Our pledge , as far as I know, has the only two DK swords but we also have folks using 9Paags.

Proc weapons are really strong on this server— but we’re no longer a new server and people have invested serious time into getting their paags.

When I saw that paag was just getting nerfed I sent a gif of being beaten with soap filled socks to Mephi… because that was NOT the goal.

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BOSS Discord

My recommendation was, and continues to be, a decently big buff to DK, and a small buff to KV1HS to have them above a 9paag with the increased bonus on this server from over enchanting and elemental enchants… but not by any exceptional amount.

Simply put there are quite a few 9 paags and VERY few 7 DK or KV1HS. If the power of weapons should increase as you get farther into the game then some balancing was required— but nerfing paag doesn’t seem from my viewpoint to be the right way to do that.

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KrazySam Discord

I understand the concern about nerfing items people invested time and resources into, and that was never the intention behind these changes. The goal was to bring overall weapon balance closer together, not invalidate anyone’s progress.

The way I’ve adjusted weapons has always followed the same general philosophy across the board. I’m not balancing strictly from damage test targets alone. Most weapons received

  • +2 to +3 base damage
  • +2 to +3 hit/damage bonuses
  • added stats
  • increased proc damage
  • proc improvements depending on the weapon

Where things became problematic was proc chance scaling. Ret and Paagrio ended up receiving much larger proc chance increases than intended, mainly because I originally used Kurtz as the comparison point. That caused DK Sword and Kurtz to feel significantly weaker by comparison, even after they had already received multiple rounds of upgrades.

Because of that I shifted more power into fixed proc damage and burst potential on DK Sword and similar weapons instead of continuing to endlessly scale proc chance upward across every weapon. The goal there was to create stronger kill potential and better identity for those weapons without turning everything into a proc lottery.

It’s also important to remember we’ve been through this before. Early on during what everyone called “Bume Gate,” many players believed Bume Smache completely outclassed every other weapon in the game. At the same time, people were claiming Paagrio was stronger when it actually wasn’t. Perception can shift heavily depending on what players are currently seeing in PvP.

At this point, DK Sword, Kurtz, and KV have already been upgraded far beyond where they originally started. They are significantly stronger than their original versions and have received multiple rounds of improvements. I do not think the healthiest long-term direction is to continuously raise every underperforming weapon higher and higher while never making downward adjustments anywhere else.

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KrazySam Discord

That said, I am still monitoring everything closely. The goal is not to punish investment. The goal is to keep multiple weapons viable and prevent one setup from permanently becoming the unquestioned best option forever.

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Dave Mack Discord edited

I can see both sides. But aren't we comparing a +7 to a +9? I think many over enchanted more basic items are better than a +7. Isn't that the point for it to be harder to get a weapon and blow it with the potential being better? If we are comparing a +9 paag to +9 DKS or KV1HS and the paag is beating it, then yeah, there is a problem. I think we need to compare apples to apples here. I also understand the difficulty of acquiring, but isn't a +9 DKS or KV1HS pretty godly (or insanely lucky with a lot of risk)? It's a hard debate, with no clear answer. FID is of course the Trump all. So the GMs need to decided where each other weapon falls under it and at what enchant to compare them. It's not easy and I don't envy them with this task.

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AtariAfterDark site: console Discord

Just going to add this and then leave this alone: You should consider looking into DR if balancing is the overall goal. IMO the paag was good... now knights know the best damage output will be what they already had with the paag and that's likely to lead people going away from knights and onto character that do more damage... 🤷‍♂️

IMO its a few things not just the sword.

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BOSS Discord

Well— there were multiple +9 paags before there was a single DK or KV1HS. I don’t agree that a +9 paag should compete with a +7 DK or KV1HS. The modified proc bonus made it so it did.

Should a +10 paag? Yes.

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